[POLL] STAFF Tie breaker poll for Final Four Bracket 1

[volumex]

You know, in a Tie break, i would rather have the Staff vote, to put it back out there wouldn't be fair. If you are square (even), well then you need an internal vote by the creators of the contest! This works I doubt the team would want to revisit a new format? So lets move on to the finals, and yes lets hope we don't land up with another two bounty's on the same piece of ice! Cos that woul be very 'cold'... LOL
Good Luck may the best ship sail forth....

[bigospedros]

2 major complainers in one contest?!

The staff here run this site out of their own time and pockets. You read the bit about the prizes being self funded, not donated from Lego, right? If they keep getting complaints like this, maybe they'll just stop doing them for their own sanity? Would you really want that?

I certainly wouldn't. I love seeing the creativity in these contests. The remaining 4 are right in my opinion.

I am quite sure, for clarity, the staff will ensure that EVERY SINGLE FINITE DETAIL is laid out in the rules at the start. But please do remember that a tied vote is almost unprecedented, so some slack on how to deal with that should be given here.

[Stardusty]

Well, that discussion was interesting to read.

After I've found the topic with the rules of the contests, I was a bit surprised that there's no
sentence like: All staff decisions are final.
That's something I see a lot in contests.
Correct me if I missed it, but it would be nice to see it in the rules of every contest.

I still can't understand why was there such a buzz about votes splited up in 7:3 ratio.
There's no reason for staff members to have exactly the same opinion like forum members.
And ted @ndes suggested a very nice way of solving the problem.

My two cents, I guess.

[Solo]

I am quite sure, for clarity, the staff will ensure that EVERY SINGLE FINITE DETAIL is laid out in the rules at the start.

I would love to be able to run a contest like that, but I've yet to see one without a thread full of questions (on things both addressed and omitted) so I wonder if that's even possible. But I'm always trying to make the rules simpler and clearer and every new contest is a learning experience.

I was a bit surprised that there's no sentence like: All staff decisions are final.

Like that would stop people from complaining?

And ted @ndes suggested a very nice way of solving the problem.

I actually disagree there, cumulative votes work in other formats but in tournament voting I think it had the opposite effect on fairness. Imagine four ships: the first round has a really close race and one landslide, and then when the second round you get a tie. Why should the one that had the bigger lead in the first poll advance? It seems like the other one had to fight harder to get there. Not that that's what happened here, but the idea behind it carries over. To me at least. Just my opinion on it though.

[volumex]

I did mention this to founder, that the contest (s) will need to carry a terms and conditions, which needs to be used as a reference to entering anything, so we don't land up with misunderstanding and unsure situations... I just cant see why the staff vote issue has been pulled out like this? The control of how tie's etc are handled need to come from staff, we as the com can't take that into our hands, that would be just a glass house waiting for the stones to be thrown...
A community vote will be always differ to a staff vote, after all we all have different tastes and that ratio would be higher on a lesser vote count. I think if there are solid ground rules planted, we all know were we need to step, and understand how to conduct the process and in turn 'respect' it!
Thats not only my two cents but five!

[Jabba the Taff]

_nours: If there were only three staff votes, would a 2 to 1 split have annoyed you as much? 67% compared to 70% of the vote. 2:1 is quantitatively much closer (the one vote edging it) but proportionally similar. The small sample size of the staff vote means it's more likely for swings like this to show up.

The re-vote system seems unfair because of people unable to do so and new voters joining the sample. I say make them build another ship with the same bricks! Seriously, staff tie-break is fine. It's not an uncommon system. Editor's decision is final is also common and the comes down to one vote.

[bigospedros]

I am quite sure, for clarity, the staff will ensure that EVERY SINGLE FINITE DETAIL is laid out in the rules at the start.

I would love to be able to run a contest like that, but I've yet to see one without a thread full of questions (on things both addressed and omitted) so I wonder if that's even possible. But I'm always trying to make the rules simpler and clearer and every new contest is a learning experience.

Hmmm, that's kind of the angle I meant to put, but you put it much more eloquently than me

I bet you though, even if you did try to cover everything in the T&Cs, no-one would read them all and as such, people would still start throwing accusations around I doubt you can ever win here ... someone, somewhere will always find fault.

[volumex]

@bigospedros.. you right its human nature to find fault, what a race we are... hey, I didnt like the way you ended that last post (LOL)

[madLEGOman]

_nours: I'm sorry this didn't end how you wanted or expected. Staff votes are the default method to handle ties and we'll be sure to make that clearer up front in the future as m19 suggest. Ties are just so rare that I didn't notice they weren't directly addressed in the rules.

I don't think you really understand why I "moan" : first round 59/59 a tie! second round by the staff 30% / 70% : that doesn't reflect the first vote ! That's why I find this unfair, the difference is too big/wide (I don't know how to say that in english).
The second reason, and I don't say that's my way is better than yours, is that we used to vote DIRECTLY in my country and I think that you use some kind of "great electors" system in your elections ( I maybe wrong but I think must of the people in this forum are from USA)...it's maybe the reason why I can't understand letting people/staff decide for all of us .
And after all it doesn't so important...

you do realize that fbtb staff are not elected representatives, and therefore are in no way obligated to cast their votes in a manner to reflect the opinions of a member constituency, right?

[Stardusty]

And ted @ndes suggested a very nice way of solving the problem.

I actually disagree there, cumulative votes work in other formats but in tournament voting I think it had the opposite effect on fairness. Imagine four ships: the first round has a really close race and one landslide, and then when the second round you get a tie. Why should the one that had the bigger lead in the first poll advance? It seems like the other one had to fight harder to get there. Not that that's what happened here, but the idea behind it carries over. To me at least. Just my opinion on it though.

I completely forgot about that.

I was a bit surprised that there's no sentence like: All staff decisions are final.

Like that would stop people from complaining?

It WOULD stop me from complaining about staff decisions.

(I'm not complaining, but it has to mean something to someone and I believe it would stop some people
from complaining.)

[JD4M]

So I just now read these three pages of comments. Interesting.

_Nours, you just wanted it to be fair and would have prefered a public tiebreaker because it would be more fun, yeah?

Zane's ship not only rocked but the thumbnail photo is much better than mine. My ship was difficult to photograph.

To be honest your being more emotional over voting for the ship than the person who built it. I agree that staff votes are usually how ties are sorted out on other forums and contests. I also like the cumulative vote idea.

Yup. Agreed.

Maybe not relevant to a contest this big but voting in such a way as to assign points could be fun. E.g. 1 point for better Bounty Hunter, 1 point for better cockpit/interior, 1 point for better holding cell, 1 point for better engine, and 1 point for better overall shape. That would add fun and interest to the voting for me.

[ted @ndes]

And ted @ndes suggested a very nice way of solving the problem.

I actually disagree there, cumulative votes work in other formats but in tournament voting I think it had the opposite effect on fairness. Imagine four ships: the first round has a really close race and one landslide, and then when the second round you get a tie. Why should the one that had the bigger lead in the first poll advance? It seems like the other one had to fight harder to get there. Not that that's what happened here, but the idea behind it carries over. To me at least. Just my opinion on it though.

Yeah, that is one of the drawbacks, especially within region pools starting out... With the NFL season in full swing, I was just thinking of parrallels with all of the divisions (and disparity between them), and crazy tie-break rules that they have (overall standings, division standings, head-to-head standings, points scored, points allowed, etc...)... Just brainstorming.
EDIT: I like the added criteria above too for a tie-break. Would need to set it out the expectations in advance.

[JD4M]

Maybe not relevant to a contest this big but voting in such a way as to assign points could be fun. E.g. 1 point for better Bounty Hunter, 1 point for better cockpit/interior, 1 point for better holding cell, 1 point for better engine, and 1 point for better overall shape. That would add fun and interest to the voting for me.

EDIT: I like the added criteria above too for a tie-break. Would need to set it out the expectations in advance.

If thats what you're refering to I actually meant it for an entire contest even though it could also work for a tie breaker.