Lack of Comments in MOC Section

[Robzula]

Why is everyone getting so hung up on this lately? FBTB is meant to be a place where people give you constructive criticism- that is, telling specifically what it is that you're doing right or wrong or how you could improve the model. Sure, it's nice to get nonconstructive praise, and it happens even here every now and then (I've done it myself), but no one wants to just go "I like this" on every page that comes up here when they don't have anything specific that they like\dislike. FBTB is a place of discussion, there are plenty of other sites (like Flickr or the various MOC gallery sites) that you could post on where the purpose is just to show off and have people praise you. You should still post here on FBTB, it's a great way to show off to a larger\different audience and get some helpful tips on occasion, just don't expect pages of "I like this" or "this is cool" like you could from other places.

Another thing, it's kind of off putting, at least for me, when you make a post in your own MOC thread saying "No one comments here anymore!" To me, that reads "I'M NOT GETTING ENOUGH ATTENTION PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEE!"

(maybe we do need that rant section after all)

[MisterFubar]

*Like*

[Rook]

I guess this might be directed at me, and maybe some others too, but I noticed that there seems to be tons of discussion here on everything except MOCs. On EuroBricks I had more then forty replies on the last MOC I posted, and about 2 here. And yes I know most of the replies on EB were “awesomes!!!”, but even that is cool when you’ve spent 4 months building something. With several of the photo hosting sites I had about 500 to +4000 views depending on site.

I asked that because it seems like FBTB is be coming more about just hanging out, instead of building. Which isn't bad thing. It's just seems like it has changed. And it isn't what it use to be for MOC discussion and feedback. Hard to improve when no one tells what they liked/disliked. At least with a “like” and “dislike” comments only you can get a feel for if people think you need to rework the MOC or not.

PS: Thanks for posting this thread. Hopefully it will create some good discussion on the topic and maybe even inspire a few people to build/comment on MOCs.

[Joedward]

I know there are going to be a number of different reasons, and for different people, but I'll just list a few.
- There havee been occasions in the past where even the tiniest hint of criticism, whether constructive or not, has resulted in a barage of aggressiveness from the builder. Some may not want to comment encased it's not received well.
- Now that we have Flickr, and most people use it for hosting the images of their MOCs, it might just seem easier to comment there rather than here.
- An issue pointed out many times, some people just don't include images in their posts, just links, this is annoying and can turn people off... really quickly.
- Bad photography of the MOC. This one may not be fair, but if you creation isn't presented well enough people may just go on browsing.
- Bad MOC. This is completely subjective to the reader, but say the creation is not to their liking, for whatever reason and they don't feel like sugar coating a response to a possibly new/inexperienced builder... and so on and so forth.

Those last couple may be a bit of a reach, but I'm sure its possible. You may embed images of a brilliant MOC, with superbly taken pictures and still not get many comments... I suppose that's just bad luck.
Or maybe people are preferring to come here for the news and deals, and have less interest in all things user built. As I say, I'm sure there are many reasons, pick your favourite and go with that.

[Solo]

In addition to (and elaborating one one of) Joedward's reply,

it seems like FBTB is be coming more about ... hanging out, instead of [just] building

I think that's a pretty accurate way of looking at it (after moving a word of course). We aren't just here to build. We have a lot of members, with many varied priorities, and building their own ships is pretty low on the list judging by the amount of MOCs posted so it can only be assumed that the interest in giving feedback is just as low.

From an optimistic perspective that the interest is there but people simply aren't commenting here, the main sap to remember is Flickr. The ability to comment on and add notes to every specific picture is in my opinion an infinitely better system for feedback than a static gallery linked in a thread, and that's what I suspect most people prefer. Likewise, since so many FOLs in here use Flickr, they're likely to spot any MOCs of interest through various groups or in their contacts stream before noticing it was posted on the forum, further undermining the traffic to and from the thread.

It's a double edged sword. On the one hand Flickr makes feedback on MOCs easier and more interactive. On the other, thanks to our reliance on it, "MOC Showcase" is a bit of a ghost town. I'd never suggest getting rid of it because it's still a valuable part of the site and community, but the game has changed. Expecting the same results from the an system when a better system is in place and being used is unrealistic. That's my take on it at least.



That's a general look at the issue, but I wanted to address Rook directly since you felt singled out by this. This is just my opinion on why your Rook Runner floundered here. I noticed on CABG and Eurobricks that you only linked to the Photobucket gallery in your posts, while here you gave us that plus Flickr links. I love that you did that so people can view it in their format of choice, but, per my tirade above I can guarantee that took away some of the comments that would have been posted to the thread here had it been before the era of Flickr. Now I think even posting only a photobucket gallery would put some people off because it's an unfamiliar system after sticking to Flickr. Even so, that wouldn't account for the massive difference in interest... The main point that can't be overlooked is you're much more active there than on FBTB, so something like that ship and your Venator just doesn't have the same base level of community involvement over here. How many sigfigs from other forum members did you work into the crew? Of course they're going to be excited and flood the threads with replies. Over here it's just some non-canon ship, but to CABG it's something they're a part of. And with all the membership overlap between CABG, EB, Flickr, and FBTB, the people who are interested enough to comment are going to do so where they see it the most appropriate, and FBTB is at the bottom of the list for such a project.

[meeotch]

I'm not a member of other LEGO forums (like Classic Space or Eurobricks) so I'm wondering if anyone can weigh in on if this phenomenon is specific to FBTB or not?

[Solo]

A quick glance at the new Classic Space forum reveals that with five pages of MOC announcements none of them hit double digit replies, with a heavy reliance on Flickr and MOCpage links rather than simple galleries (so, the same "off site syndrome" as we have). I never got the hang of EB's layout with everything mixed together, but it looks like MOC threads get a good number of responses - and most members from the threads I clicked into are embedding externally hosted images into their posts. CABG threads get a lot of replies, but, that's to be expected of a Builder's Guild is it not? Clicking through the posts I saw a lot of flickr images embedded, but none done properly with links back to the photopages. So those two forums are going old school and keeping commentary on-site, and it shows.

[Robzula]

Didn't mean to single you out, Rook. I had no one really in mind when making the post, just the phenomenon itself, but if you wanna be nemeses or arch rivals, that'd be okay. But only if I get to be the good guy. Or we could both be anti-heroes and leave it up to the viewer to decide. Or....

[Draykov]

What Don said in his original post...

I'm not a member of other LEGO forums (like Classic Space or Eurobricks) so I'm wondering if anyone can weigh in on if this phenomenon is specific to FBTB or not?

I used to make semi-regular trips over to CS...very occasionally with MOCs to share (none of them super great). While I love a lot of the MOCs I discovered over there and I really respect and admire some of their creators, I found the site to get bogged down in elitist, hyper-critical reviews. Initially, I liked that CS was pretty no-holds-barred, because it really made you want to stretch as a builder (and photographer), but my take (and it might be very far off base given my limited amount of time spent there) is that the place was dying because of lack of participation of some of the best builders and clique-ish bullying by those talented ones that remained. The hack-job was just the nuke the place needed to drive it back into the proverbial stone-age. All that to say, as a counter-point to the original poster, too much criticism without any sort of comradery and without the friendly spirit that usually comes with a shared interest sucks the participation right out of something. I think the ideal MOC sharing depot should strike a balance between good-natured desire to share our creative endeavors, mutual respect, truly constructive criticism, and thick skin.

Also, I wanna build more and contribute (while I love official sets a lot of the time, MOCs are at least as important and drive my interest in the hobby), but I've gotta a lot of stuff going on, so...

[theJudeAbides]

You know, Draykov, I've heard a few people talking about how "cliquish and harsh" CS was and I gotta say, I just don't get it. Now, I've never been a member there, but I've been there both pre and post hack, read many of the threads in the MOC section, and never got that impression at all. They always seemed cordial and inviting to me (I just never had anything to share). So I really don't understand that attitude at all.

It seems to me that the only ones that seem to espouse this attitude are FBTB MODs and Admins, too. Makes me wonder if you guys aren't just trying to drum up internet drama and prevent people from realizing the simple truth: that site is just as cool and awesome as this one is. (At least it used to be when they had all the articles and such. The post-hack site is but a ghost of it's former glory, but hopefully they'll eventually get it back to how it was before.)

[Chief]

It seems to me that the only ones that seem to espouse this attitude are FBTB MODs and Admins, too. Makes me wonder if you guys aren't just trying to drum up internet drama and prevent people from realizing the simple truth: that site is just as cool and awesome as this one is.

In defense of CS, I was a member there for a loooong time. I love the site, love the people. The hack was a travesty for nonmembers and members alike.

In defense of FBTB, you already admitted you weren't a member of CSF, and I don't know how many other sites you frequent, but CSF had their fair share of enemies around the internet for the reasons Draykov stated. I don't agree with those opinions, but that's okay, since they're personal opinions and the staff doesn't have to agree on such things. Also, drumming up internet drama benefits no one. Back that claim up with something if you're going to make it.

[Rook]

@ Joedward:

I liked what you said in general, but mainly I liked the part about Flickr. I guess it's true, when I joined back in 2005-6, I believe, we didn't have the Flickr Group. So it makes sense that we've been giving less feedback in general here on MOCs because it's happening off site.

@ Solo:

So true. I'm not into a lot of the general discussion stuff. I mainly like to build. So I'm rarely comment in the discussions here. Where as EB, Flickr, and CABG are still very MOC based sites which makes sense why I'm more active with them. Also I liked your comment about "with all the membership overlap between CABG, EB, Flickr, and FBTB". I guess that it does help facilitate very different forums and therefore different discussions and content covering the SWU genera of Lego.

@ Robzula

Getting singled out on this wasn’t a bad thing. I had just posted a “WOW WTF!?” A few days earlier, so I thought that might have prompted you question/statement. Which I think was a good thing. And looking Solo’s & Joedward’s comments, they helped clear up the reasons behind what I was thinking and what you posted. And that is simply that there are fewer MOC comments on FBTB.net because they are happening on Flickr.com instead. :thumbsup:

[Draykov]

Excuse me for taking this topic off the tracks, but I'd like to respond...

You know, Draykov, I've heard a few people talking about how "cliquish and harsh" CS was and I gotta say, I just don't get it. Now, I've never been a member there, but I've been there both pre and post hack, read many of the threads in the MOC section, and never got that impression at all. They always seemed cordial and inviting to me (I just never had anything to share). So I really don't understand that attitude at all.

As an example of some of the less-than-cool behavior: I consider myself something of a purist, and I prefer creations made with original LEGO bits, but I thought nnenn's stuff was phenomenal anyway (if a bit of a tease). Based on the little attention I paid to the situation at the time, it seemed liked some folks wanted the man crucified for using non-LEGO parts in some of his creations. There were some really great guys over there, but there were also a fair share of tools, and after a time, the tools seemed to take over.

As I mentioned, my assessment may be off and may be skewed based on the specific time-frames that I spent more time over at CS than other LEGO related sites (including FBTB). It may also just have been that, while I enjoyed the same MOCs and building styles as the folks over there, I didn't subscribe to the same basic philosophies and opinions in other aspects of the hobby and life in general. To my own lament, I'm more of a discusser than a [MOC] builder. It could be a simple matter of my not fitting in well there.

I think post-hack and leading up to the hack, it was/has been a completely different place with a friendly and accepting vibe. Go back...maybe as long as 5 or so years ago though, and it was kind of a tough place to be a new kid or someone who wasn't deeply ingrained in the core group. That was my experience anyway...and that doesn't have anything to do with any creations I shared. What feedback I got was either useful, fair or both.

It seems to me that the only ones that seem to espouse this attitude are FBTB MODs and Admins, too. Makes me wonder if you guys aren't just trying to drum up internet drama and prevent people from realizing the simple truth: that site is just as cool and awesome as this one is.

I think that's pretty laughable. My opinion of CS was formed years before I was a staff member here and is my own. When it comes to LEGO fan sites, my attitude has always been that of a LEGO fan (a space fan in particular) first and foremost, so any site with good content and an active community is seen as a boon by yours truly. I love FBTB, but I have zero involvement in any nerd-site pissing contests, real or imagined. We're all on the same team as far as I'm concerned.

You keep on stickin' it to the man, though, Jude.

[dWhisper]

I'm curious about a few different things on this. First... why would any of you want the staff trying to push discussions? Especially when most of the members don't seem motivated to do the same thing? Don't get me wrong, I think the staff should set direction, but to be honest, we've tried it before, several times. We even started to post most of our MOCs here, and didn't get any more activity.

And in my mind (and a few others), the MOC section should be the focus of the forums. I'd much rather see 33 pages of discussion around an awesome MOC than a whole mess of people "wishing" what sets would come out. Especially given that the nature of our hobby is that you can build whatever you like. If even 10% of the people spent time building instead of wishing, it might be a more lively place. But hey, what's the fun in that?

Writing a MOC thread is a tricky thing, and I know how a thread is constructed is going to dictate how I respond to it. I've covered some of this before in How to Write Posts and Influence People (you all have read the CoC threads... right?), as well as in [http://www.fbtb.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13]Constructive Criticism, Building, and You[/url] in the MOC forum. You have to present your case and demand our time, and often, like in any feedback forum, push for the type of feedback that you want.

Highlight aspects of your build and try to start the discussion. Say what you like about your build and what you'd like feedback on. Give some good details and shots, and see where it takes you. Really, it's the same as any other threads. Look at what a response gives... do you actually ask a question and discuss, or just a post with a statement? A MOC thread without some direction means you won't get as many responses.

And to be fair, for me, a lot of it is what you show me. If you just posted a link to your external flickr stream or a single picture (especially a small picture), I'm probably just going to click back. Anything that takes me to another site means I'm no longer thinking about replying here. I'm on whatever site that is, so you're now shooting yourself in the foot for comments. That's not saying you can't link to those. You should, because no one wants a thread of a hundred pictures; I do it myself when I post a MOC on the forums.

And a lot of times, if I don't have something to add, I'm not going to post. I believe in constructive criticism and feedback, not just generic "nice job" posts. Anything I put on the forums should have some thought and meaning. That's why you're not going to see a post from me with just an lol or a smiley (unless I'm being ironic... ). And you're not going to see feedback in a MOC unless I have something to give beyond a good pat-on-the-back post.

[dWhisper]

It seems to me that the only ones that seem to espouse this attitude are FBTB MODs and Admins, too. Makes me wonder if you guys aren't just trying to drum up internet drama and prevent people from realizing the simple truth: that site is just as cool and awesome as this one is.

Is it pile on Jude day? If so, sign me up! (I kid, I kid). But I would like to respond, because a lot of the site animosity is more imaginary than anything else. All sites, and in truth, all social groups, are going to be in some ways cliquish. They have to be to function... there needs to be some barrier to entry in a social circle for trust to form. It's when that barrier becomes insurmountable that it's a problem. And I'm not sure any of the sites out there were like that.

There seems to be an idea of rivalry or hatred between sites (Us vs. EuroBricks, us vs. Classic Space, Classic Castle vs. Pepperidge Farms, what not) that really doesn't exist. All of the various fan sites serve a niche, and play to it. I don't happen to frequent EuroBricks because I don't care about spoilers and it's not my style; I've never been a classic space guy so I don't go to that site. Classic Castle has had a lot of the same complaints you see leveled against CS (and to a point, that others level against us, I'm sure), and I'm a member there as well. Ultimately, feedback is going to be based on the traffic you receive, and lot of that is subjective to the site. Like the other staff members have posted, no one really has these attitudes among the staff, and most of us are active or at least read some of the other sites as well.

How many on any of the given LEGO sites are really active builders? On our site, I'd guess at best 25%. Most of the others are probably similar... we're hobbyists, but most of us are also adults as well. I'd love to sit around and do nothing but build, but simply don't have the time to do it.

[turtle]

I support the idea that relying on flickr to host images, is moving the discussion from away from this forum. If the purpose of this forum is to create a gathering place for people with a common interest in both Lego and SW, why scatter them away to traffic another site? I understand the simplicity of using flickr's image sharing tools, but it's a two edged sword.

I agree that the MOC section of this forum, should be what this site revolves around, but I'm not sure that it does.

I also feel that I have read a number of posts by staff members that discourage comment posting. Sure you don't want people clogging up a thread with 20 "Awesome Sauce!!" comments, which is a lot of what you see on flickr. But a lot of people won't risk sharing their opinions if they believe that their is a good chance that those opinions are going to poorly recieved. I understand that for people who actively post in forums on a daily basis, it's pretty easy to loose touch with that apprehension. But for others, it's easier to just browse the forum without even bothering to log in. And if they have to go through the effort to post their content somewhere else, why double post it?
I suppose it does give their MOC more exposure, but that's only a motivator for the type of person who needs to self promote. And FBTB doesn't really give them anything more than any other forum, besides it's contests/ community builds/ giveaways/ and more recently the parts drafts.

I think FBTB could push the development of it's own community, by doing a better job of encouraging the activities that give it's members a reason to be a group.

I'm surprised that I don't see more posts where people are asking for help in locating a resources or solving problems with their builds.

And I'm surprised we don't have more comunity projects like:
"build a Tatooine theme building in 12x12 x 8 bricks high"
~or~
"build a bit of bizarre plant life from Fellucia"

Where the submission guidelines require pictures that detail their construction. That's just a minor thing, but it creates a resource for MOC'ers to jump off from into vignettes and larger dioramas. And if that information is hosted on FBTB, there is their reason to be here.

[Anio]

Hello,

Very interesting thread.

I didn't understand everything people wrote here. But it's fine.

I support the idea that relying on flickr to host images, is moving the discussion from away from this forum.

Disagreed. You can browse the forum of many LUG everywhere in the world, for most of them, their MOC section is very interesting. People have things to say. FlickR has nothing to do with the death of the MOC section of FBTB.


Besides, I do not care about the quality of the photo in a thread. Some builders just do not have what is necessary to do great pictures. And no doubt I'm among them.
Nevertheless, a constructiv criticism shouldn't be based on the quality of the photos, but really on what the MOCer built.
It is sad to see that many MOCs are ignored because the photo are not perfect. It is not rare that a poorly photographed MOC is more interesting than a very nicely photograhed MOC.
It is also pathetic to read nice comment on a very poor MOC but very well captured...

Regarding the way people start their thread, I think it is important to present the MOC with pics, and explanations : shapes, building technique, why these choices were made, etc. There are so many thing to say about a building process...
I will not answer to someone who just a link to his flickR account. That kind of message is just a spam, IMO.



Eventually, I've read that someone thought that Mods and Admins killed the MOC section. To some extent, I agree with that.
Indeed, frontpaging a nice MOC is a kind of recognition or reward from the staff to the builders. If I may say so, it means "We do enjoy your MOC, and we thank you to share it with our community".
Instead of that, look at the frontpage of FBTB : It's been a while that 50% of its content is extracted from Amazon & Cie and so, as much interesting as the spam section of my e-mail box...

[volumex]

@Anio
I believe the site will be revamped and is currently under construction. Nice to see this thread picked up again.

[Anio]

I believe the site will be revamped and is currently under construction.

Could you be more specific ?

Nice to see this thread picked up again.

Actually, it was just the 4th or 5th thread in the suggestion forum. ^^
So, I did not really bump the thread.

[volumex]

The site is going to be redesigned.


Re: redesign in the works
by onions » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:02 am

also, this is your opportunity to point out any deficiencies or areas that need improvement. or even a wishlist of what you'd like to see.