A digression on Scalping...

[Iare Tosevite]

Seems to me that it depends on timing.

If bought during usual price or sale, it's not really scalping since it's still in production.

However, knowing that it was terminated and during black friday, it's closer to the definition of scalping.

[kelano28]

In the above situation, what did the employees expect? A small number of a hard to find (and I assume at the time valuable) item pop up in storage and they are all put out on the shelf in one day in a store that only sells that product (in other words, exaclty the kind of place a collector or specuator would go to look for such things). There are only a handful of outcomes to realistically expect. Most of them involve the item being gone very fast. It all comes down to how many people buy it up. Really, what else was going to happen there? If they wanted people to see them, put them in a display case. Otherwise, they work in a store that sells things and they are suprised that someone bought those things? Wow.

I don't really think 6 copies of a $50 set at once is a small amount, but that's just me..

And the LEGO employees I know aren't at all surprised that people do this, in fact they are quite accustomed to it. But when they find sets in the back and DO put them in a display stand in the front of the store, they are hoping that a few people (kids, collectors, etc.) will get their lucky day and finally be able to pick the set up. Instead, the first person waiting around who sees the sets (often more than 6 by the way) runs in and buys every single one. Sure, LEGO makes their money and they sell their product, but the customers suffer because the availability is being compromised by greedy people who want to make a few hundred dollars instead of actually working for money and earning it. Let's face it, anyone can scalp, its not too difficult.

As for a solution, simply get what is necessary and maybe doubles for trading later on I suppose. But don't buy up every set in the store with the intention of selling on ebay in a month's time. If everyone followed this rule, there wouldn't be so many unopened neglected sets out there collecting dust next to Nintendo Wii's.

[ufjason]

Sorry but that's a load of BS! Lego is in the business of selling sets. You better believe I would buy every hoth base I saw when it was discontinued. In fact, I bought ten sets two holiday seasons ago. I paid retail for them, which at 49.99 was pretty good compared to TRU at the time. I was also limited to 5 and they had stacks of them! I was in Orlando at the time and made two separate trips. I was holding onto them for last holiday season and you know what, they were re released! The set availability can't be compromised when they were out for so long in wide distribution at both Lego's website, stores and TRU. You had your chance to buy it either online or at retail. So, if you missed this set the first time, shame on you for not taking advantage the second time. They even had them on sale at TRU at one point.

One time I was in a Lego store and tried buying all of the sith infiltrators when I saw them post discontinuation. They looked in the back and said they didn't have anymore and they'd have to limit me to two. I didn't argue one bit, as it's their prerogative to do so and I accepted that. If they were smart, they would only put them out one at a time if it's a limited set. The store near me is very proactive in taking care of customers and do not let anyone purchase in bulk in store if the set is limited. However, they do take phone orders and those in the know typically order a lot before they ever hit the shelves. Again, they limit the total amount of one set they can buy. I typically get preferential treatment there as I buy so much. In the last year, I've spent close to 2000 on Lego, so don't say I'm hurting their business. I bought a lot at a scratch and dent there, and late black Friday found over ten star destroyers and four MTT's lingering on shelves. I took my fill after everyone else had their chance.

[DarthMC]

meeotch wrote:
I'm a Target employee. Target does not do price adjustments for Black Friday deals. Also, you have to know what items are on the sale with enough time to plan for it, and while I know that Target's ad was out a few days before Black Friday, they hadn't released the ad to aggregators weeks in advance like Wal Mart and Best Buy did.

I think that it depends on what Target you go to. I asked the manager at my local one (Washington DC area) if I could price match and he said yes so I did my Black Friday shopping three days early. Went in at 9AM on Friday and did the price match and was out of the store at 9:05. Strangely enough there were still lots of Star Destroyers on the shelf at that time. I only was getting one Destroyer + some kids DVDs so the manager may have told me differently if I had a shopping cart full.

DarthMC

[Tyrant]

I don't really think 6 copies of a $50 set at once is a small amount, but that's just me..

I bought that many King's Castle Siege sets @$50 in one night, so to me, yes 6 is a small amount that I would have considered buying out.

And the LEGO employees I know aren't at all surprised that people do this, in fact they are quite accustomed to it. But when they find sets in the back and DO put them in a display stand in the front of the store, they are hoping that a few people (kids, collectors, etc.) will get their lucky day and finally be able to pick the set up.

So why don't they become poactive and try to make sure kids do get them. A good stat would be waiting until sometime after school lets out to put them on the shelves. Maybe that's a little too much effort compared to showing disgust at a practice they should absolutely know will happen if they don't change their policy.

Instead, the first person waiting around who sees the sets (often more than 6 by the way) runs in and buys every single one. Sure, LEGO makes their money and they sell their product, but the customers suffer because the availability is being compromised by greedy people who want to make a few hundred dollars instead of actually working for money and earning it.

Ah, here we are. Finally the real reason why you dislike this set up. In your eyes, these people don't deserve to make money applying the basic laws of capitalism to their advantage. Yet again, someone has absolutely no problem with faceless multinational corporations making a profit, but when a single person does it it becomes morally wrong somehow. Let's overlook the fact that they are gambling with their money on whether they will make a profit. Let's forget that it takes time and effort to go get these sets (in this type of scenario, most people just buy them while they sit on shelves for months on end). Let's forget to have a realistic shot at being there on that day when they are put out means they probably go there everyday and unless they walk I assume it costs them money to do that. And it costs money to list these (unless they go on craigslist or something like that). It's not like people are buying mansions doing this (as opposed to say, people who's "talent" is convincing other people they have vocal talent). Or if they are I really need to step up my game.

Let's face it, anyone can scalp, its not too difficult.

If there's only one thing I take from threads like this, it is that yes, it apparently is difficult to scalp. If anyone could do it, so many people wouldn't complain about it. Unless they are the type of people that just love to complain and not actually fix anything.

As for a solution, simply get what is necessary and maybe doubles for trading later on I suppose. But don't buy up every set in the store with the intention of selling on ebay in a month's time. If everyone followed this rule, there wouldn't be so many unopened neglected sets out there collecting dust next to Nintendo Wii's.

I said a realistic solution, not a code of conduct that violates the ideas behind being able to buy whatever you want so long as you have the money. A code of conduct won't change anything. I'm talking a real solution.

As for what is "necessary", who defines that? To me, it may mean enough to have a few to sell later. Or like some sets that I do buy for myself, it could mean 20+. Who judges this? And why is it okay to get one to trade later, but not some to sell? Planning to trade implies that you understand that the set's value will rise later. Otherwise there is no reason to risk buying it and holding on to it when you could just save your money and buy whatever you are trying to trade for. To save to trade means you think it will be advantagious to have that set later on. How is that any different than scalping?

[kyphur]

It seems that the people upset by the problem of supply & demand are the ones who seem to think owning the sets they want is their right.

No it's not. You have the same chance as everyone else to get the sets while they're in production. We know about them months before they're released so stop buying cola for 3 months and save your change for the new sets.

There is no solution because the problem is fictious.

[ufjason]

It seems that the people upset by the problem of supply & demand are the ones who seem to think owning the sets they want is their right.

No it's not. You have the same chance as everyone else to get the sets while they're in production. We know about them months before they're released so stop buying cola for 3 months and save your change for the new sets.

There is no solution because the problem is fictious.

Hilarious! You bring up a great point. I know this is slightly off the base of the conversation. I think Americans think that they are entitled to these things. Simple fact of the matter is not everyone gets to own every set that comes out. Some people simply can't afford it. I remember as a kid drooling after the larger sets that cost $100 today. I remember wanting the guarded inn from phone order which wasn't that expensive. Unfortunately, I was one of three children and couldn't get everything I wanted. You have to make choices, either food on the table or the hoth base. Which is a priority in your life? There are always going to be haves and have nots.

I want a Lexus but I can't have one because I can't afford it, even with my "huge" profits from Lego "scalping". I probably could afford it if I diverted my Lego income but I also had to put a new roof on my house that cost $5000 and had to cut a tree down for $900. I've got two step kids to contend with too. I do VERY well with my Lego investing and it has covered some unforeseen expenses. I brought in $10000 in revenue from October to January and sold about 70-85 items. My typical profit margin averages out to 1000%. I have to spend a lot of time and money to acquire sets, not always finding anything after driving around all day. This is why I buy everything I see when I find a great price, or pick up a discontinued set at retail price. I'm maximizing my investment there. Most of the time, I'm the only one buying this stuff as it hits 75% off. I haven't impeded anyone's ability to get these sets because they had their chance at normal retail pricing.

In fact, not everyone gets to own their own house or car. People seem to think they're entitled but these are luxuries! You can easily rent a house and use public transportation. I have zero debt and I scrutinize every purchase I make, whether at the supermarket, clothing or Lego store. I don't buy sets for retail unless they are discontinued and I won't have the opportunity later. I missed out on the tank cause I wanted a discount and the 6 that I found at a target made their way out on a day I couldn't stop by and went for $35. I'm patient and always buy on clearance. That means I never get the brand spanking new sets that come out. I've learned to be patient. This year, I found two AT-TE's for 10, droid gunships for $17. I can't get a gunship though as they're just too much, best I found was 100 and I simply wasn't willing to make that kind of purchase.

Now that I'm an adult, and continue to have my love for Lego, I can get whatever I want now that I can afford it. I recognized an opportunity 9 years ago that buying sets and holding onto them could fund my collecting. What I didn't know was that I would have so many opportunities to buy from store closings (Kmart, Service Merchandise, KB) that my normal clearance shopping looked small scale. I now have a huge inventory of sets that goes back to 1997! I don't know any scalper that has sets that old =).

I'll end this post with an investor's tip =). I'm actually going to tell you what sets are going to be worth a lot of money and you should buy everyone of them if you get a chance. I can do this because no matter what you do, you won't affect me in the long run whether locally or on ebay.

*Tuesday Morning may have some Batman sets still. They typically get some new Lego stock around this time and you should take advantage of this and look for what they're going to be refreshed with.

*Go to TRU and buy the hoth base, republic cruiser, star destroyer and MTT. I still see them on shelves in rural towns for retail. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a discount but either way, these will skyrocket in value when they disappear from stores. The 6212 XWing will be next, keep an eye on it at [email protected] as they're cheaper than getting them from TRU.

*Check your walmarts and targets for the IJ Jungle Duel, Droid Gunship and IJ Chase for Stolen Treasure, these will increase in value and are cheap to acquire.

*If you see a Jedi Starfighter with Hyperdrive, get it. They're disappearing now and will be hard to find soon enough. The Kit Fisto figure makes this very valuable. In fact, anytime a set has a mini figure you can't get anywhere else, you can bank on that set skyrocketing! Look at Greedo, White dress Leia, Slave Leia, Lando, need I go on?

*Use forums to find deals on sets! Not just FBTB but fatwallet and slickdeals are great sites. Check them daily if you can as deals can come and go in a matter of hours. I missed out on amazon deals for the gunship =(. I did however get 5 UCS Falcons half off because of the boards.

*Don't underestimate the <10 dollar sets. I have dozens of speeder bike, droid escape, vader transformation, scout walkers etc. When you get the opportunity for clearance, buy in quantity. I get $50 bucks a pop for speeder bikes, just sold one the other day! I'm sorry I didn't buy IJ Jungle Duels for 7.50, I just wanted them for 5.00 =)

Hopefully I've given you tips. I usually charge for this info but it's pro bono! Enjoy.

[ThinkingImpaired]

Let's face it, anyone can scalp, its not too difficult.

If there's only one thing I take from threads like this, it is that yes, it apparently is difficult to scalp. If anyone could do it, so many people wouldn't complain about it. Unless they are the type of people that just love to complain and not actually fix anything. =

Scalping is easy. You buy. You put away. You sell. The reason why not everyone does it is because not everyone is smart enough to do it.

[bigospedros]

it's posts like that one from ufjason that make me wish I lived in the US !

[Tyrant]

Let's face it, anyone can scalp, its not too difficult.

If there's only one thing I take from threads like this, it is that yes, it apparently is difficult to scalp. If anyone could do it, so many people wouldn't complain about it. Unless they are the type of people that just love to complain and not actually fix anything. =

Scalping is easy. You buy. You put away. You sell. The reason why not everyone does it is because not everyone is smart enough to do it.

Of course it's easy. I was being sarcastic because with the number of people that complain about it one would think there was something truly difficult about the process.

[Solo]

It's not difficult, it's just a waste of time for the average fan. They've got better things to do than leach off their fellow collectors and they're not mad they can't do it themselves, they're mad mad someone else is doing it to them. The members that see LEGO as a hobby look to he community for inspiration and entertainment. The members who see LEGO as a side business look to community for information and profit. Scalping on it's own is one thing. It's a neccesary evil that goes hand in hand with collecting. But stepping in claiming the high ground and insulting others for not liking what you do just makes you guys sound like arrogant sods that no one around here would miss.

Also,

I think Americans think that they are entitled to these things.

wow. Ignorant much? Americans aren't the only ones complaining, they just outnumber the international members on the forum and thus end up with the majority of replies.

I've got to say it, as much as you guys are claiming a clear conscience you're sure posting an awful lot trying to defend scalping. You're not going to sway anyone else's opinions so who are you really trying to convince here?

[Tyrant]

It's not difficult, it's just a waste of time for the average fan. They've got better things to do than leach off their fellow collectors and they're not mad they can't do it themselves, they're mad mad someone else is doing it to them.

Leach off of their fellow collectors? And who is doing what to who? As someone else pointed out pretty clearly, it takes two people to make a sale. If they don't want to pay, they don't have to. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. I again come back to this question: "Why is it okay for a corporation to profit from these products and not an individual person?"

Also, leaching? Really? Being smart enough to see fairly obvious trends in products and taking advantage of them is leaching?

I've got to say it, as much as you guys are claiming a clear conscience you're sure posting an awful lot trying to defend scalping. You're not going to sway anyone else's opinions so who are you really trying to convince here?

I suppose 'll start by pointing out that door swings both ways. Or that no one seems to be able or willing to attempt to answer my very simple questions. You think there is a problem, how should we fix it? If you don't even have a suggestion, then you're just complaining. So far one poster had a suggestion, though it was unrealistic at least he was trying.

As for a clear conscience, mine has been clear through my other hobbies where it really was scalping. It won't change now. I reply because I enjoy discussion and this is one of the few discussions that seems to actually be about an adult issue that is actualy allowed. This site (and other LEGO sites) is great for a lot of things, but serious in depth discussions about issues like this isn't very often one of them (and I am not saying it should be either) so I enjoy participating when they come up (and I have something to contribute). So, I will continue to reply and it has nothing to do with whether I feel right in doing what I do. And again, for the record, I've never had a second thought about it.

[Solo]

I was editing my reply as you posted so there's more there than when you read it.

But yes, leaching. You're stepping into an established market as an extra middleman to profit. Like I said before: you're still providing a service to the community, but at a cost. People don't like you for this. Deal with it. You think TRU cares that people are always complaining their prices are marked up?

[onions]

tyrant you drone on and on replying with the same rhetoric. we get your point. seriously. you're not adding much else to the discussion beyond your initial post.

[kyphur]

Also,

I think Americans think that they are entitled to these things.

wow. Ignorant much? Americans aren't the only ones complaining, they just outnumber the international members on the forum and thus end up with the majority of replies.

I'm the one who brought up the "we feel entitled" issue. I'm American, you're right we're not the only ones complaining but I do think that there is a title wave of American Entitlement Issues that will eventually lead to our downfall.

When you expect someone else to provide everything for you that used to be considered "Living the American Dream" (see I said dream not standard) then you stop working as hard to accomplish something for yourself.

I'm going to oversimplify an extremely complex issue here....

---completely off topic and irrelevant assessment of the economy committed---

Of course I took this to absurd levels but then this whole thread is just one group crying that they paid too much for a set and another saying that's their fault fro not buying it when the Supply & Demand was in their favor.

If you want a full collection then do some legwork, it requires two simple things: Time & Money, the more you have of one the less you need of the other!

it's posts like that one from ufjason that make me wish I lived in the US !

That same post reminds of of most of the reasons I can't wait to retire overseas. "ExPat" life diving into my twilight years!

Heck I'm going to start selling of my (nearly complete) SW Lego Collection this year to finance the last property I'll ever own built to my specs in the Philippines. BTW, did anyone know that LEGO retail for 3 times the US equivelant price in the Philippines?

[Tyrant]

I was editing my reply as you posted so there's more there than when you read it.

But yes, leaching. You're stepping into an established market as an extra middleman to profit. Like I said before: you're still providing a service to the community, but at a cost. People don't like you for this. Deal with it. You think TRU cares that people are always complaining their prices are marked up?

In response to the other bits in your post after I posted: I don't look to the community to profit and plunder. When I find good deals, I post them. I don't clear out stores. Even if I did (barring certain situations, and there I at least somewhat understand the anger), they are still available online for the same exact price. Who again am I supposedly screwing? The only person I may be screwing is someone who was waiting for it to go on clearance.

I could care less if people on the internet like me for having common sense or not, so there is nothing to deal with. As I said before I won't dress it up claiming I am providing a service. I do it to make money for me. Pure and simple. Just like every other capitalist venture out there.

Does TRU care, probably not. Do people go to where TRU hangs out and complain about it in a way that TRU is inclined to respond? No they don't. What do people think the reaction will be when it is pretty well known there are people who resell sets. I assume everyone here has heard of Bricklink and Ebay and know numerous members have stores there. My point about businesses is directed at TLG, not TRU. They clearly make a profit. This is apparently a horrible, borrible thing. Why aren't people mad at them? Why only when it is regular people who have figured out a way to make a profit within the rules of the system? Is it a crime to succeed now? This is why the argument is so hard to get for people who don't see the problem. It simpy doesn't hold up to real world logic at all and comes off as nothng but complaining. And then people who take advantage are demonized. The people supposedly being hurt by this (they aren't) have no one to blame but themselves. Don't buy them for inflated prices. Simple.

To be absolutely clear, I don't hate or think less of anyone who doesn't do this. Despite how feelings go the opposite direction, I have no personal problem with these people. My problem is that their argument holds no weight and it is used to demonize anyone who actually tries to do something with their hobby beyond building the sets (and MOCs, obviously). That gets to me after seeing it in one hobby after another. Ultimately their argument could be summed up as "give me the things I think I deserve for free" if you take it far enough. The world doesn't work that way(unless you're a dictator or something) and it vey likely never will.

tyrant you drone on and on replying with the same rhetoric. we get your point. seriously. you're not adding much else to the discussion beyond your initial post.

So a post that tells me all I do is post and not contribute (which means said post informing me of my non-discussion-moving post doesn't contribue in any way and should have been a PM if it's really an issue) moves the discussion along how? What new and original ideas have the anti scalpers come up with? I see some names and the beginings of demand of equality in an inherintly unequal system, but that's about it. I explained why I keep posting. I also note that my fairly simple, straightforward questions continue to go unanswered. Someone answer them and we can move in an exciting new direction.

Edit to add: If I am coming across as a jerk or anything of that nature, or if I am sounding like I am insinuating that people who don't do these things are dumb (or whatever other name you wish to apply), that is not my intent. If I am I apologise. I don't think I am, but it's hard to know how other people will take what you write online.

[Solo]

I answered your question before you even asked it: the problem here is that people don't like scalpers. The only solution is to deal with it. The thread this was split from was asking why can't LEGO just rerelease sets that are in demand, and it died off because it's an absurd idea because it wouldn't be as profitable for them as making new ones.

If you have a more specific question then please repeat it. But if you just want to know what's the problem and it's solution, well, it's been covered.

[Tyrant]

I answered your question before you even asked it: the problem here is that people don't like scalpers. The only solution is to deal with it. The thread this was split from was asking why can't LEGO just rerelease sets that are in demand, and it died off because it's an absurd idea because it wouldn't be as profitable for them as making new ones.

Thank you. I guess I should have clarified when I asked. What I mean is, in the view of the antiscalpers (sorry if no one agrees with that term), what is the problem? Not simply that they don't like scalpers, but what specifically is the issue and how do they believe it can be solved. I would personally like to discuss that, that's why I keep asking in the hopes that someone has an answer that isn't absurd (example of absurd, make LEGO free forever). I know they don't like scalpers and I know the basic reasons why. I just want to know what they think is the core of the problem and what can be done about it. I just seem to take giant walls of text to say that.

[tamuhockey]

As a question - do people whining about scalpers, consider it scalping if a someine is an autorized LEGO reseller (or even store resellers, ala Wal-Mart, Target, etc) - who are able to purchase the products direct from LEGO for below MSRP, but then turn around and sell them for MRSP, in bulk? Its really no different from people buying at MSRP, and asking for more than MSRP - there is time and money invested in the initial purchase, storage (long or short-term) and marketing for resale, that needs to be made back somewhere down the line - one cannot expect resellers to take a net loss on all their products. If anything, purchasing farther upward the supply channel gives them an advantage over all other potential customers, and allows them to control a much larger percentage of the markets' supply, than an ordinary retail customer. For sets purchased at retail - at least all market participants have an equal (in theory) opportunity to purchase.

As well - shouldn't you also be getting on TLC's case, for selling their items at MSRP via the website, when they are selling them for much, much cheaper to resellers, and don't have anywhere near the overhead that their channel partners have? That's just blatent profit, for profit's sake. We certainly Can't have companies making a profit on products they sell.

The term "SCALPING" is just a concept invented so people have someone/something to blame so that they can feel better about not being able to afford products that are underpriced for their respective market. What people seem to consider scalping, is really just the markets' natural way of correcting itself to try and reach equilibrium - without it, free market economies CAN NOT FUNCTION EFFECTIVELY. Its a necessary function - it provides a great service to the market (and all its participants - buyers/sellers) - and the only reason to get upset over it is that you seem to think the world is completely fair, and that you are entitled to something despite lacking one or more of the following (time/energy/money/intelligence) when compared to the rest of the market participants who are in the market for a specific underpriced good/service.

[Solo]

Thank you. I guess I should have clarified when I asked. What I mean is, in the view of the antiscalpers (sorry if no one agrees with that term), what is the problem? Not simply that they don't like scalpers, but what specifically is the issue and how do they believe it can be solved. I would personally like to discuss that, that's why I keep asking in the hopes that someone has an answer that isn't absurd (example of absurd, make LEGO free forever). I know they don't like scalpers and I know the basic reasons why. I just want to know what they think is the core of the problem and what can be done about it. I just seem to take giant walls of text to say that.

The general antiscalper sentiment stems from the illusion that the scalpers are the ones making it hard for them to get the sets at retail, when in the absence of scalpers they would have just as hard of a time. And when the sets in demand are only available through the scalpers who stocked up, and the price is over retail, they feel they are being taken advantage of. With no other options they resort to paying more than they want for a set, and the obvious target for their complaints is the person they're paying. This even happens when LEGO does a second run of a set, available only on [email protected], for a higher than initial price. People hate it and say it's not fair, but they buy it because the alternative of not getting it at all is less satisfying. Solution 1 is for scalpers to sell the sets they pick up at cost, but as it's a business for them this is absurd. A few collectors will grab extras and do this, but the majority of the aftermarket deals end up higher than MSRP because people have to invest extra time and money to accommodate the latecomers. Solution 2 is for LEGO to produce sets on demand, and right now that just isn't economical viable. Solution 3 is for people to just suck it up and deal with the extra expense of missing the initial run for whatever reasons, but that's far less likely to happen than 2 or 1.

tl;dr: The problem is people hate spending more money than they want to, and there is no reasonable solution.