A digression on Scalping...

[bigospedros]

I bought one or two sets (Naboo Starfighter, Republic Tank) in a recent clearance sale (50% off the Naboo and 25% off the Republic Tan), with the express intention of hanging into them for a couple of years and then trying to sell them. Does that make me a scalper ?

Yes, I bought them with the full intention of keeping them to sell on, but I bought them at the very end of their shelf life. So, that means that surely most people that wanted these sets had bought them already. The retailers wouldn't have discounted them so much if they thought they could sell them at RRP, surely?!

If I had the money, I would buy many more sets, keep them as MISB and then sell them on years later, but sadly, I can't do this very often because :

a) The UK has very few sales of more than 25% off
b) I don't have masses of disposable income that I feel I can tie up in Lego sets
c) I don't have the storage space to keep said sets in conditions to keep them MISB

However, should any of those circumstances change, I wouldn't feel guilty about buying a few sets to sell on. It's not as if I am buying 10s or more of each set, literally 1 or 2 at the most. What would I do with any profit I should make?! Spend it on newer Lego sets, at retail prices, more likely.

[onions]

if i were a bettin' man i'd guess that this particular topic hits close to home for tyrant.

not once did i single you out, or anyone else for that matter in my post; yet you respond quite passionately as if i did. maybe i'm reading too much into it, hard not to when you quote my post and pick it apart and respond as if you were the only person in the room. in any case, people's reasons for what they do are their own; and those actions will be interpreted any number of ways by their observers. scalpers will scalp for their love of money. plain and simple.

and to respond to you, thepatient. I found myself in that same situation and was quite honest with the seller about the projected value of their lot that they were selling. she sold it to me for the same price anyway based on my honesty. i ended up giving her more money than what she was asking for; i'm a nice guy. what can i say? it's both a blessing and a curse.

[meeotch]

I find it funny that some people keep asking "does this make me a scalper," as if I might change my mind on how I feel about it. I think it's all ready been established that there is something of a spectrum to the issue, but ultimately, if you are squatting on something until it makes you money, it basically is scalping.

And the garage sale example really strikes a chord with me. My dad sold all of my old Legos in a garage sale. I had an entire box just for instructions. I sank thousands of dollars in allowance and christmas / birthday money into that, and I bet (though he "doesn't remember" how much he sold it for) that it was really cheap, like on the order of 25 or 50 bucks, knowing how my dad is at garage sales and the fact that he wanted my junk out of his house. I'm sure that whoever bought them (if they were a Lego collector) didn't offer to pay for what they were worth, or my dad would have a better story for me than he does. I had some Blacktron 1, lots of Blacktron 2, all of M-Tron and Ice Planet, lots of the first 2 Space Police, Spyrius, and boatloads of Technic. So this has probably colored my perceptions of it pretty badly, but I certainly can't separate this situation from how I feel about it as a whole.

[Tyrant]

if i were a bettin' man i'd guess that this particular topic hits close to home for tyrant.

Not as close as you would think. I have only sold a handful of sets. I've mostly been buying in preperation to sell later as far as LEGO is concerned. My big seller thus far was an original Republic Gunship. I got it for $50 on clearance at a Wal Mart when it came out. I sold it already built minus figures for $125 the day I heard they were making a new one. I originally bought it for myself. Then I found out what it was worth and that if I really wanted one I could sell the one I had, make a profit, and if I felt like it buy a new one. Did that change, years after purchase, magically make me a scalper since I decided to sell it for profit? With my other hobbies, I have sold quite a bit more and made quite a bit more. The vast majority of my profit went to further my hobbies. What hits close to home is when people think I'm somehow a terrible person because I am smart enough to take advantage of an obvious situation that allows me to ultimately buy more than I would normally be able. I don't feel bad about that in the slightest. I feel sorry for people that have a moral hangup about maximizing their money. There is nothing wrong with making money (barring obvious possible legal issues if you're breaking the law). To further clarify about what does and does not hit home, the opinion of people on the internet in relation to my business practices is irrelivent to me unless it somehow actually impacts said business practices. I don't take these things personally and anything I say shouldn't be taken as such. I am not out to offend anyone with my comments and I don't take offense very easily.

not once did i single you out, or anyone else for that matter in my post; yet you respond quite passionately as if i did. maybe i'm reading too much into it, hard not to when you quote my post and pick it apart and respond as if you were the only person in the room. in any case, people's reasons for what they do are their own; and those actions will be interpreted any number of ways by their observers. scalpers will scalp for their love of money. plain and simple.

My response was not even approaching passionate. I picked your post apart because it is easiest to avoid misunderstanding if people specifically address what they are responding to. It's nothing personal, it's just how I respond if I feel like responding to individual parts and not the general claim. If I come off as being singled out, it's probably because most people who fit the scalper profile don't bother responding to these threads. When one person does (me in this case) they are usually one of the few, or only, representitive of their side of the discussion. Anything they say will come across as if they are taking it personally because they are likely the only one responding from that viewpoint. Beyond that, believe what you want. It's a free country (which is kind of my point).

As for money, as I said I won't make what I do sound glorious or why I do it. I also won't make it sound like I kick puppies in back alleys for fun. It is what it is. Capitalism. Of course I do it for the money. The money that I then use to buy more of the things I like. I am still failing to see the problem with increasing my money while taking part in a hobby I enjoy. Who is being wronged again?

In response to some general thoughts I see in this thread (and have seen elsewhere), the definition for scalper is far too broad. Applying it means that anyone who buys land to later resell is a scalper. Technically, a distributor is a scalper. A wholesaler is a scalper. Anyone who buys stock (the majority of the time the general idea is to buy low and sell high) is a scalper. Anyone who buys commodities is a scalper. Anyone who sells anything for more than they paid for it is a scalper. That it is utterly absurd. Somehow, the things I listed are exempt from this definition (despite the fact they all center around the idea of selling for more than they were bought and were usually bought with that intent), yet a guy (or gal, to be fair) buying LEGO is somehow a bad person. Of course, it also means people ar ejust fine with faceless, multinational corporations making profit, but not individuals. Yeah, that makes sense coming from people I assume are supposed to be "the little guy". This whole argument simply doesn't stand up to logic or the general ideas behind capitalism. More importantly, the term scalper is obviously negative. Applying such an overly broad definition implies that anyone who engages in the selling end of capitalism is a scalper. Also, utterly absurd. Capitalism isn't a fair system. Like a previous poster said, life isn't fair.

Also, in agreement with a previous poster, if me taking advantage of the market to sell things for more than their initial value, what does that make people who wait until things go on sale to buy them? Making money and saving money aren't really any different to the bottom line (both amounts being equal obviously). So then, what is the difference between these two people? What is really the difference between me buying something to resell and me buying it to keep it? Either way I have (in theory) somehow altered the supply and potentially deprived some later hypothetical customer (LHC) of the opportunity to buy that set. Or what if I buy 10 to keep. And so on and so on. What is the real difference? Either way it is sold. Either way the LHC doesn't get the set. It seems it's only wrong if someone else makes money on it.

[Jhulae]

If you sell a set on eBay, then it's worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay. Auction situations allow people to decide just how much they can pay. Sure, someone who can't or isn't willing to spend a lot of money might still lose, but at least they have a chance of getting something they want.

I think the 'scalpers' in this conversation are the ones who list a set at X dollars, usually for double or more of the original stock price. Yes, you'll still have people who think a set is worth whatever the sale price is, but other people have no chance in their 'say' via the bidding mechanism, which is where the scalping issue I think comes in.

[Tyrant]

If you sell a set on eBay, then it's worth whatever the buyer is willing to pay. Auction situations allow people to decide just how much they can pay. Sure, someone who can't or isn't willing to spend a lot of money might still lose, but at least they have a chance of getting something they want.

I think the 'scalpers' in this conversation are the ones who list a set at X dollars, usually for double or more of the original stock price. Yes, you'll still have people who think a set is worth whatever the sale price is, but other people have no chance in their 'say' via the bidding mechanism, which is where the scalping issue I think comes in.

So why not buy it when it's readily available to everyone? If I sell something, I can choose to name my price. Either people will pay it or they won't. That's just how things work.

How about this, everyone who seems to have a problem with scalping (not specifically directed at anyone), what alternative would you propose? What are the realistic chances of TLG adopting this idea and is it realistically economically viable? And yet again, since no one seems to be able to answer this, who exactly is being wronged in this situation to warrant the dislike of scalpers? How is capitalism their fault?

Edit to add: I'm totally serious about my questions in the last paragraph. I'm not trying to sound sarcastic. Also, I wasn't trying to come off as a jerk in my responses and I hope I don't sound that way.

[thepatient]

Tyrant- You’re not a scalper. Buying something on sale and saving it and selling it later is not a crime or ethically wrong. If you went to every toy store with in a 50 mile radius, bought every single AT-TE and then sold them to the kids in your town for more; then you would be a scalper (and a jerk). I’m sure that every customer that you’ve had, is satisfied with their transaction. If it’s the right price and someone is willing to pay more than it was MSRP, then that’s the right price for that customer at that time. It’s a fair trade or purchase.

If for whatever reasons a person purchases a set after their production runs outs, (i.e.: you have a job now and don’t have mom and dad paying for everything.) no amount of money is too pricey if you really want to buy that set. At which point you will appreciate the fact that someone saved a set for you to buy later (at a small profit).

[Tyrant]

Tyrant- You’re not a scalper. Buying something on sale and saving it and selling it later is not a crime or ethically wrong. If you went to every toy store with in a 50 mile radius, bought every single AT-TE and then sold them to the kids in your town for more; then you would be a scalper (and a jerk). I’m sure that every customer that you’ve had, is satisfied with their transaction. If it’s the right price and someone is willing to pay more than it was MSRP, then that’s the right price for that customer at that time. It’s a fair trade or purchase.

Yeah I could see calling that scalping (and being a jerk). I'm just waiting for someone to tell me that is happening everywhere (including online). Until they do (and prove it, because I honestly won't believe it because it isn't happening here) I don't see the problem. With the current set up, it really just comes across as pointless complaining. I think a lot of my view on the topic comes from my previous experience in the great scalper debate that involved things that actually were hard to find and were worth many times what people payed for them. Those debates got "interesting" to say the least.

[b4p]

i just started collecting recently and it's hard not to notice that a lot of sellers are in it for the money (obviously). It seems like there are tens of thousands of unopened sets floating around (what a shame) for triple the original price. Screw that... I might just give up on SW and go agents/castles or something.

[Iare Tosevite]

I don't have Millenium falcon because someone bought all 9 of em at once at black friday.

Either scalping or not, that was just unfair, expecially since store policy was 2 per customer at that time.

[LEGOscum]

My point is, if you took advantage of this lady, isn't greed still involved? So what would make you any better than a scalper? Purchasing items from people can go both ways. No matter what someone is trying to buy or sell, indivduals always try to end up with the upperhand.

It's not scalping and it's not taking advantage. In your scenario all of the sets you named wouldn't be available at retail, and since they've already been bought and used by the previous owner it won't affect supply. Paying what she is asking is not wrong, even if you know she's is losing money because it is acceptable to find a bargain. I once found a vintage Kenner Imperial Shuttle in box for $15. Why would I stump up an extra $785?!

[ufjason]

Wow, this looks like a resurrection of a thread I started way back on the old board. It started after a little pip squeak calling me a scalper! Ironically enough, we DID NOT live in the same town. I typically share my finds on the board as I'm not directly competing with anyone locally for supply. I do INVEST in Lego like others would invest in the stock market. Sometimes I buy bad stocks like alpha team, knights kingdom and EXO force. But there are certain stocks that always perform well, Star Wars, Spongebob, Batman are recognizable brands like Coca Cola and my employer Microsoft. I'm fairing a whole lot better than those who chose the stock market right now, that's for sure!

Value is determined by the BUYERS in a free market. When you get a bunch of buyers together in a store looking at the same thing, they determine the price of the item. If a seller is asking too much, the item sits on the shelf. They lower the price a few people buy, they lower it more and a bunch more buy. Once the price hits a certain point (equilibrium), all of the supply is bought up by all of the demand. On the auction side, eBay does a perfect job of valuing sets by letting the buyers determine the value and not the seller. The seller has no control over the pricing unless they list a fixed price. However, they can't make anyone buy at their price!

All of your arguments don't hold water for scalping. In order for it to work:

You need to have an extremely limited supply of an item (food, toilet paper, event ticket or Lego set).
There has to be a very small time window in order to obtain the item (you need to eat, wipe, see the show, build the set).
There has to be a very high demand for the item (you're one of a great many that wants or needs it).
The offender purchases the item in order to control some of the supply of the item.
The offender sells the item at an artificially inflated value.
The buyers do not have any control over pricing by bidding or driving the price up to a natural equilibrium where supply meets demand.

A devil's advocate point of view could also defend the scalper. If everyone bought a ticket to a show they intended to go to and I either found out about the show too late to buy the ticket or was unable to buy the ticket when it first went on sale, I would have no chance of seeing that show. The scalper provides me an opportunity to still get a ticket, and it's up to how much of a fan I am on how much I'm willing to pay. For example, I'm a UF grad and live in Atlanta. The SEC championship game was here and I went down to the stadium with my brother to see the Gators stomp the Tide. I told him what I was willing to pay to see them ($200), not one dollar more. The scalpers were there, asking $300 a ticket. We searched for a while and ended up seeing it at a nearby bar. Some scalpers had to sell their tickets near face value around half time, I'm sure which would be a loss for them. I made the decision to not pay their prices and having that ticket was not worth it to me (thought in hindsight of a national championship season, I might have gone up a little .

The only set I can think about that met some of this criteria was the castle advent calendar. The set came out through limited distribution via the shop@home 800 number. There was a limited supply and buyers were limited to two purchases. I believe there was reasonably high demand for this set, I know I wanted one. Some buyers kept calling and reordering two sets. The set sold out fairly quickly. In some ways I don't think this example fits as it took at least two weeks to sell out and that's plenty of time to buy it if you had read the post about it's availability. Now the set is on bricklink and eBay for inflated prices. Again, some of these are auctions and it is the buyers that are driving up the prices on eBay.

As far as calling anyone either here or on eBay a Lego scalper is absolutely ridiculous! I, nor anyone else on here, can affect the supply of sets that you have access to on a large scale. Yes, on a small scale, I might affect your ability to get a set if we shop at the same Target store. However, how long was the set available for? Is it my fault you didn't pay retail for it while you had the chance? Did you try another Target, Walmart, TRU, online store, etc? Heck, did you take advantage of the sale Target or Amazon had or get a rain check if they were sold out? The one thing someone can accuse me of is decreasing your chances of finding a set on clearance in my town. I just happen to be better informed than most. I use all of the tools at my disposal and a lot of hard work and repetitive price checking when I'm in stores.

So, if you want something, get it while you can. If supply is diminished, use alternative methods to find what you're looking for. Ask a member on here where to find the sets you're looking for while they're available. You have no one else but yourself to blame if you wait too long to buy something that won't be on a shelf forever. It's not Lego's job to keep producing the same sets forever. We'd be bored with them and move on to something else. They change the line to keep us interested!

This reminds me, I need to put my eBay store link back in my signature .

[mavriel]

I beleive the scalpers actually work to keep the prices lower after Lego discontinues a set. As stated previsouly, this is different from tickets for an event, because those items have a limited supply. Lego watches the sales of its sets and increases production of the good sellers.

So, if there were no scalpers, Lego would produce 1000 boxes of a set (example). Scalpers out there increase demand, so Lego produces 1400 sets. 1000 are sold to regular customers, and 400 to scalpers (all at normal prices). Typcially, demand for a set is waning near the end of its production life, but it is still there. So, assume the demand is at 50 sets the year after it is discontinued. Immediately the scalpers increase their prices 20% and fulfill that demand in year one. Demand is 45 sets the following year, so the scalpers keep selling, and a few incresase the price to +25%. This keeps happening until supply is very thin, and the increase is up over 100% 4-6 years after it is discontinued. Now imagine scalpers were not there to fill demand - the 50 sets and 45 sets would have to be bought from collectors and Lego freaks such as ourselves. Would most of you freaks be willing to sell your only Gunship for +25% two years after you buoght it, not knowing if you could ever get another? I thought not. You would most likely demand more than a scalper would, and demand would outstrip supply and the price would skyrocket.

I just wanted to say thanks to the scalpers/investors out there!

[bigospedros]

Brill, I was hoping ufjason was going to post in this since I knew he was a major investor in sets. I very much like the point that only impact he can make on supply and demand is in his direct area. I also like his re-iteration that he is taking a risk by doing what he does and that the buyers determine the re-selling price.

All of this really does add up to the fact that everyone defines being a "scalper" as a bad thing, but that this term is used far too widely and probably one that doesn't refer to globally available mass market products such as Lego in quite such a good way as locally available limited products such as concert tickets etc.

Either way, I'm still not bothered what other people think of me if buy the odd set to sell on. My conscience is clear

[dWhisper]

Ah, "scalping," the age old complaint of toy collectors. It's an interesting thing when it comes to LEGO, because you don't often hear about the guys who show up at Walmart and Target at 6 am to rifle through the Hot Wheels, or all those antique shops that have been hoarding furniture for all these years. Like has been stated by several people, people that work the aftermarket follow demand, they don't create it. LEGO is far bigger than all the after-market sellers, who focus on people like us, not the vast majority of the everyday buyers (the kids and their parents). Take this years complaint, the Republic Tank, and last years, Hoth Base, and compare them. In both cases, they were available for months, and no one bought them. Both were limited, and once gone, they were gone. Well, more or less, since Hoth Base came back based on demand.

In fact, Target exclusives have come back before, though at higher prices. The 7905 Building Crane was a Target exclusive (one I had to drive almost two hours to get), and was later reborn as a LEGO exclusive for $20 more. Star Wars sets have done the same thing (the Hoth Base, for example), and some exclusives (Dwarf Mine from last year) have gone on to be general release sets.

How people reacted is what builds the value around them, and people can sell them for whatever they want. There's no use complaining (and that's a nice word for some of this), because you bring it on yourself by being a collector. I wanted the Tank too, but didn't buy it, so now I have to pay aftermarket prices for it (anyone have one they want to sell, drop me a line). That's no ones fault but my own, and given the value, the current going price isn't outlandish.

But I agree with Daz (or was it Don) earlier... scalping isn't really the word here. Even on the "definition"earlier, it was about short term gains, not investment. Based on what people are calling it here, real estate is scalping if you're trying to turn it over (though not a good choice right now).

[ThinkingImpaired]

If for whatever reasons a person purchases a set after their production runs outs, (i.e.: you have a job now and don’t have mom and dad paying for everything.) no amount of money is too pricey if you really want to buy that set. At which point you will appreciate the fact that someone saved a set for you to buy later (at a small profit).

Exactly. I got a job last summer and I went to ebay and bought up all the original pirate sets. After-market prices but it's what I'm willing to pay so I'm not complaining.

I don't have Millenium falcon because someone bought all 9 of em at once at black friday.

Either scalping or not, that was just unfair, expecially since store policy was 2 per customer at that time.

Now something like a black friday sale I think would be morally wrong. Thousands of people come to stores looking for black friday deals, if the first person buys up all the sets (like star destroyers for this year at target) then everyone waiting right behind that person is screwed. I was the first one to get a Star destroyer in a target this year but I only got one because there's not near enough for everyone as it is and everyone came to get one.


There's nothing wrong with stocking up on new sets to sell years down the road. It's what I've been doing for the last few years and it's a nice investment. You have to buy the sets when they're out and find a place to store them for years so you get the reward that comes with that when the rest of the supply dwindles and people are willing to pay much more. Only the biggest collectors will be buying old sets MISB anyway...everyone who just wanted the set will buy used ones for much cheaper because there's usually a constant supply on used sets while MISB sets dwindle exponentially.

[Voice of Reason]

DonSolo, ThePatient, some others have good points.

My thoughts:

1) I like to make money. I like LEGO. I know if I buy a certain LEGO set and resell it later (or part it out) I can make money. Why wouldn't I do this? Is there some code of toy buying chivalry I didn't notice? There isn't much one can say to make me not like money.

2) It takes two to make a deal. Don't like the price, don't buy it. If everyone folowed this rule the "brick market" prices wouldn't fluctuate to inflated levels.

3) Of course, if you don't like #2 then that figure or set you missed out on is pretty much unobtainable unless you get really lucky.

4) Stealing is bad. Denying people a necessary life item (food, shelter, etc...) is evil. Making a business deal is not (and a deal means both sides agree). Not everything in the world is a bright and shiny rainbow where everyone smiles and has everything they ever wanted. No one is entitled to a retired LEGO set at MSRP just because they feel someone making money off of them is wrong.

I'm not sorry to be so blunt, but when I see people whine over the price of an unnecessary life item like LEGO (gasp - I said it!) my gut reaction is to say if you can't afford it, don't buy it! And if you do buy it, why can't you be happy about it? Complain over real problems and you see my sympathetic side. Complain over LEGO prices? Not so much.

[Voice of Reason]

If for whatever reasons a person purchases a set after their production runs outs, (i.e.: you have a job now and don’t have mom and dad paying for everything.) no amount of money is too pricey if you really want to buy that set. At which point you will appreciate the fact that someone saved a set for you to buy later (at a small profit).

Exactly. I got a job last summer and I went to ebay and bought up all the original pirate sets. After-market prices but it's what I'm willing to pay so I'm not complaining.

I don't have Millenium falcon because someone bought all 9 of em at once at black friday.

Either scalping or not, that was just unfair, expecially since store policy was 2 per customer at that time.

Now something like a black friday sale I think would be morally wrong. Thousands of people come to stores looking for black friday deals, if the first person buys up all the sets (like star destroyers for this year at target) then everyone waiting right behind that person is screwed. I was the first one to get a Star destroyer in a target this year but I only got one because there's not near enough for everyone as it is and everyone came to get one.

Want to know a dirty secret? Target black Friday items are often on the shelves at regular price up to a few weeks before the actual sale. Buy as many as you want before black Friday, then on the actual day stroll over to customer service with your receipt and get your credit back. Then you don't even have to get there early!

Is it wrong? That's debateable. Is it low? Yes. Is it smart? Yes. Is it something to be ashamed of? Depends on who you tell. Did I do this? No. Not out of a sense of honor, I just did not think the profit margin on the Star Destroyer would be worth the work and I had much better things to do at the time.

[meeotch]

Want to know a dirty secret? Target black Friday items are often on the shelves at regular price up to a few weeks before the actual sale. Buy as many as you want before black Friday, then on the actual day stroll over to customer service with your receipt and get your credit back. Then you don't even have to get there early!

I'm a Target employee. Target does not do price adjustments for Black Friday deals. Also, you have to know what items are on the sale with enough time to plan for it, and while I know that Target's ad was out a few days before Black Friday, they hadn't released the ad to aggregators weeks in advance like Wal Mart and Best Buy did.

I worked that day and showed up early to get an ISD at the 60 dollar price, and they were all ready gone. So what did I do? I printed myself a rain check, figuring one must be returned to a local store at some time. Sure enough, about a week later, a different store had one returned so I got it. Score!

[Tyrant]

I have a LEGO store in a mall near me and the employees absolutely hate the people who come in and buy all 6 Hoth Rebel Bases they found in storage before any kid (or person for that matter) has the chance to even look at the hard to find set..

Frankly, I agree.

So, I ask again (as it was unanswered previously), what is the solution? Clearly some people think there is a problem. I can only assume since they choose to complain about it that they have what they consider a solution. I really want to hear it. Who knows, I may agree with it.

In the above situation, what did the employees expect? A small number of a hard to find (and I assume at the time valuable) item pop up in storage and they are all put out on the shelf in one day in a store that only sells that product (in other words, exaclty the kind of place a collector or specuator would go to look for such things). There are only a handful of outcomes to realistically expect. Most of them involve the item being gone very fast. It all comes down to how many people buy it up. Really, what else was going to happen there? If they wanted people to see them, put them in a display case. Otherwise, they work in a store that sells things and they are suprised that someone bought those things? Wow.