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Problems with new BST(F?) rules

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Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby sid » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:30 am

Hello all,

Hope this is the appropriate place for this, but I am extremely disappointed with the new BST (not F but kinda F) forums and have a few thoughts I would like to share.


Making this over 18 sucks ( and I say this as a person well into his thirties) for quite a few reasons. First and foremost, I have found and bought deals through this forum that were posted by minors, plain and simple. Heck, I am pretty sure many a year ago, if Copyright is one of the kids that ran the BrickBros store then, I bought a MISB RBR off him when he was a minor, great deal but I had to trust a minor and did.

More importantly, it seems there are a few major legal problems that have been accidentally created. First even though FBTB claims no responsibility for bad trades/etc, the new rules will actually make FBTB liable for any trades in the forum and it doesn't matter that you say you aren't. FBTB are now making people "prove" who the are before you endorse them in, thus you are now responsible, if anyone gets scammed by an under 18 person, FBTB will be liable as they have vouched that they were 18+. Basically once you choose to get involved at this level, some responsibility now exists whether you like it or not, that action makes it so. If this isn't clear, I strongly suggest consulting with a lawyer who is also versed internationally as this changes somewhat in different countries.

Also problematic is the request of a photocopy of picture ID proving age, in this stolen identity world, there is absolutely no way that I would ever consider this personally, just wouldn't do it and as I also don't do paypal nor do I have a bricklink store ( I only buy don't sell so don't need one) I will now never be able to post in the BST(F?) forum, basically the main reason I visit the site. Also, legally again, with this kind of request you need a privacy and data retention policy clearly spelled out, what on earth happens to them, for how long, again because once you do this, legally you may be required to produce this information if you become involved in a lawsuit.

To continue the ramble, the pseudo-removal of the F from the forum just doesn't make sense, its been removed, we still kind of encourage you to post finds, but most of you can't actually do it because we haven't granted you permission. This was one of the most valuable functions of the old site to me, when I told my wife about this she was stunned just like me, as she said "but that is where all the good finds are found!". So in short, please bring back the F and let us all post them.

Next is the removal of what was far and above the most valuable service provided by the old site for me. The MBOLCH thread, for the life of me I cannot imagine anyone who ever "used" one of these threads thinking it would be a good idea to stop it, it is just too valuable. I subscribed to the thread, sometimes deals are hot and time matters, I get an email when someone posts a new find, awesome! Now that just doesn't exist. I cannot understand why it was shut down, the "elitist" part makes no sense to me, we had an open thread anyone could post to, now a guarded group won't let anyone post at all, that sounds much more elitist to me.

Sorry for the rant, just seems a whole bunch of things that were the most valuable parts to me in this community have been obliterated for reasons that aren't great nor clear. They have also created a legal conundrum for the FBTB staff as they could currently be held responsible for any bad trades that occur in the forum and I doubt this was planned.
sid
 
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Re: Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby Solo » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:11 am

I just wanted to post a quick response and let you know I deleted your trade request from the post because it was inappropriate to try and circumvent the rules even thought you disagree with them, and expect a more thorough response to these concerns eventually.
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Re: Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby sid » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:28 am

Sorry was not meant to circumvent, just to make the point that I want to give someone money for a set right now and I can't with the new rules and that is unfortunate. You could have PMed me, I would have happily removed it myself.
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Re: Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby Solo » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:33 am

I understand that you were making a point. Please understand that I was too.
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Re: Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby sid » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:41 am

So are there steps that others in the guild can take to verify who I was on the old site and the trades I made there. Getting on the SS list was never important to me as I always bought and and only bought from reputable people, I was (and am) always willing to send payment first and not require it to be sent until they got it so I never asked for feedback or anything, it just wasn't needed, I was just happy that folks like cellocollin were willing to go out of their way to get me a set and ship it to me, had I known I needed feedback I would have asked him but instead just said a huge thanks. If copyright is who I think he is (forgive me if I am wrong) I gave him my CC info when he was a minor to buy sets, but now I can't post anything, it is very strange from where I sit and I feel like the community is taking a huge hit with these changes.
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Re: Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby Solo » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:48 am

Trust me, it was a tough decision but it was not come to lightly. We're not trying to pick on anyone or cackling menially about making it harder for minors to trade, we're just trying to make the trading forum safer and more reliable. In the mean time it's important for you to continue to follow the rules despite disliking them.

Again, I'd appreciate your patience while the staff discusses this further, and we will reply with more later.

I'm locking this before it escalates further.
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Re: Problems with new BST(F?) rules

Postby Solo » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:09 pm

The staff had discussed this back when the thread was current but let it fall to the side in light of more pressing matters. Sorry about the delay in responding. Anyways... Some clarifications:

FBTB holds no responsibility for trades between members. No more than the owner of craigslist for deals gone wrong on that site, no more than a telephone pole that has a page stapled to it with a phone number on it. The forum is just a method to communicate with others - nothing more. If you think the site will provide a safety net for deals gone wrong, you are mistaken, and should refrain from trading.

As for the Trading Guild, it is made up of volunteer members trying to provide the best conditions for members to buy, sell and trade items over this forum. With the Straight Shooters' List system, they do provide traders and sellers with a method to keep track of how many deals a specific member successfully completed over this forum, but it cannot prevent crime and scams from happening. It's only a way to recognize those who do trade honestly and fairly over this forum.

"Approved Trader" does not mean nor imply "Endorsed Trader" - if you can not make this distinction, again, refrain from trading. The age verification efforts in place are our best effort to discourage minors from using the forum for trades, but it is not a fool proof system and we make no guarantees. As with any online dealing you are responsible for knowing who you are trading with.

A photo ID is not required, and it is also not recommended. It is merely available as an option for members with no other means to verify their commitment to trading responsibly. We're not suggesting you give us a birth certificate, social security number, or financial information. What we ask to see is simply a photo ID to verify your age. Any extraneous information can be blocked out before sending. If you are still uncomfortable sharing this and can not meet the other options, feel free to suggest a different method.

The FBTB forum history and the current Straight Shooters' List does show that more than 99% of deals made over this forum are successful. But that's not FBTB fault, nor of the Trading Guild. It's because of our decent members who take the necessary steps to trade honestly and to protect themselves.

In short: anyone can guess at the legality of this, but it is clear that FBTB has no hand in the personal dealings between members; and any information requested is insufficient to commit any sort of identity theft. If you have any legitimate legal advice to the contrary, please contact us directly if you want to help. But if you are simply pursuing this on the assumption it might spook us into removing the restriction: just say so. We'll make sure you don't have to worry about it anymore.

And regarding the "(F)inds?" issue and and the decision to disband the region specific threads: these have been explained elsewhere and don't really need to be repeated again. We apologize for the personal inconvenience it has caused you but expect that the new system will provide the same results while encouraging everyone to participate in the community.
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