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To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Jabba the Taff » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:10 pm

The CGI may be technically better in the prequels. But it doesn't matter. I don't care. I don't think about the CGI in the OT because I'm too busy getting wrapped up in the story. My brother was 8 when he saw Phantom, I was 8 when I saw Return of the Jedi. Can you guess which of those films both of us rag about the most? The PT can't be considered as a standalone trilogy because it isn't. Lucas marketed it on the idea of telling us the back-story. A back-story needs a story to back.

I'm still wondering what the chances of a PT reboot are. Made by someone who ain't Lucas.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby emmtwosix » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:34 pm

Sorry to interrupt all the nerd rage, but isn't that the point of a prequel - to shed light upon or explain events that happen after it? If you dislike them for that reason alone (which I doubt is the case) you can always reorder the way they are watched.

My sister finally watched all six films for the very first time a little over a year ago and the order I picked went like so:

IV
V
I
II
III
VI

I didn't want to spoil the mysteries of the OT and this seemed like a good compromise for someone who wanted to maintain the mystique of the original films, but who also wanted to end on a happy note, instead of Revenge of the Sith. The only thing that I can think of that you'll find out a little early (well, at least confirm) is that Leia is Luke's sister, but that's not too big a deal. Though, you may need to remind the person watching it, if it is their first time, what happened in Empire by the time you get to Jedi.

Another great thing I discovered while watching it this way is when you've finished watching Sith and you think "that sucks," then you remember you haven't finished the OT and the last time you were there things weren't any better. The galaxy, then, is left in utter despair. Jedi becomes even better when the
Spoiler: show
second death star explodes. :p
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby dWhisper » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:02 pm

Well, except for the fact that the Empire still controls all those planets, there are plenty of generals, admirals, and Moffs around, the Rebels committed a huge force, and killing the most important guy was going to undoubtedly create a power vacuum that everyone would try to fill. More than likely, it would have resulted in a much bloodier conflict after while they tried to sieze control.

Sure, you see towers and what not being toppled (and that was added later as a CGI spoiler for TPM), but that's what you get when someone dies. Then they go home and the reality sets in... the regional governors still rule by fear and power, and have tens of thousands of soldiers at their disposal. The Death Star II was remote, and not seen by the general populace.

And yes, I know the EU addressed all of this... and it took them like five years to get control and several terrible novels. It's simply a big plot hole I'm certain Lucas had no idea, and no intention, of filling.

Beyond that, none of them make the PT suck any less.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby emmtwosix » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:29 pm

Yeah, I've read the Thrawn Trilogy, (which was very good) and I realize that the Emperor's death doesn't mean the end of the Empire, but most people won't be thinking about that, and even if they are, it's still a LOT better than how Sith ends. It's a new hope....again. Maybe Episode VII can be A New New Hope or A(nother) New Hope :lol:
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby darthius » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:13 pm

Jabba the Taff wrote:
I'm still wondering what the chances of a PT reboot are. Made by someone who ain't Lucas.


I can answer that one: absolutely zilch/none/not in our generation and probably not in many generations to come. 1000% guaranteed. ;)
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Flynn » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:20 pm

MisterFubar wrote:Don't like the changes George Lucas made on the rereleases? Don't watch them, problem solved.


Except that we aren't given the opportunity to watch those in the best format available. The last DVDs that contained the original cuts of the films are I believe not sold in retail stores anymore, and even if they were, only contain a poor laserdisc transfer. From all I've heard, the originals are just rotting away somewhere, with no serious attempt being made to preserve them.

Well, that's exactly the point that I have been trying to make: It is only the hardcore OT fans that can't stop complaining and hating the PT films because they ruined their films and precious childhood memories. Everybody else just accepts them as they are and enjoys them.


Um, my childhood memories were the prequels. I grew up on them, was enthralled by them, and for the longest while even listed Attack of the Clones as my favorite Star Wars film. And now, I think they're bad films (Phantom being the only one I even halfway enjoy). I don't think that because they "damaged the OT" in some way, I think that because I think they're badly made films. Please don't declare our opinions for us- it's kinda rude.



And for what it's worth, I still think the original trilogy's effects were far superior to the prequels. Just my two cents.
Last edited by Flynn on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby RancorRider8 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:26 pm

MisterFubar wrote:I just don't get why people get so worked up over it. It's not like George Lucas rewrote history, it's FICTION. The beauty of fiction is that you can pick and choose what you want to believe because it's all fantasy.

Don't like how the PT ruined some of the OT? Don't watch it, problem solved.

Don't like the changes George Lucas made on the rereleases? Don't watch them, problem solved.

Love Jar Jar Binks and Ewoks? Ok, there is probably no help for you.

Don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong with a little healthy internet debate on occasion, but some people seem to get down right angry about it and want to burn George Lucas on a cross. I just think that there are plenty of other real problems in the world to focus that energy on.

That's my 7 cents(adjusted for inflation), I'll let you return to your regularly scheduled e-argument.


That's exactly how I feel! Don't like it? Don't watch it! Problem solved!

StoutFiles wrote:-Yoda talking about how size doesn't matter, but in the PT it does when someone can match his Force abilities.


So- because someone is as powerful as Yoda... size matters? Is there any logic to this?
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby StoutFiles » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:37 pm

RancorRider8 wrote:
StoutFiles wrote:-Yoda talking about how size doesn't matter, but in the PT it does when someone can match his Force abilities.


So- because someone is as powerful as Yoda... size matters? Is there any logic to this?


Yoda gave a enthralling speech about how we should not judge him for his size and he showed how powerful he was with the Force. In the OT, size doesn't matter if you are strong with the Force. However, size DOES matter when fighting with a lightsaber in a physical battle. Yoda has to expend much more energy fighting with his lil' baby saber with hardly any reach. He physically could not hold onto the platform fighting Sidious and fell to the bottom, where if he was a bigger, more physical alien he could have.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Flynn » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:38 pm

RancorRider8 wrote:So- because someone is as powerful as Yoda... size matters? Is there any logic to this?


It's an RLM point, I think, in which he says that the whole point of Yoda's character is that he is physically not a powerful character, and not someone who you would expect to be a legendary warrior of sorts. All of his power comes from his ability to use the force-- what his "size matters not" speech is saying is that the force transcends physical limitations, and is a power all of its own.

So then when you have Yoda face someone who is equally matched in Yoda's force abilities, and then have to battle with lightsabers or some such means, size begins to matter because the physical limitations of Yoda's stature means he has to spend a lot more energy fighting than his opponent might. If he had to face someone who was a 100-foot tall gargantuan and had hundreds of arms, all sporting lightsabers, he wouldn't have a chance. It completely wrecks the point of his character and what Empire was saying about the force.


EDIT: And StoutFiles summed it up much better. Alas.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby darthius » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:01 am

Flynn wrote: Please don't declare our opinions for us- it's kinda rude.


So far I have been giving my opinion of how I perceive the comments that hardcore OT fans make. There's a difference there. If you are unable to understand it please ask me to clarify. But please do not talk to me in a condescending manner because that is definitely rude.

Flynn wrote: If he had to face someone who was a 100-foot tall gargantuan and had hundreds of arms, all sporting lightsabers, he wouldn't have a chance. It completely wrecks the point of his character and what Empire was saying about the force.


That is just a super exaggeration. Even so the statement is still wrong. A 100 foot tall gargantuan would be that slow to move that it won't be able to see Yoda and nevermind have a chance to hit him. Yoda in fact would more likely have a better chance to defeat the gargantuan then let's say, Sidious.

Flynn wrote:
RancorRider8 wrote:So- because someone is as powerful as Yoda... size matters? Is there any logic to this?


It's an RLM point, I think, in which he says that the whole point of Yoda's character is that he is physically not a powerful character, and not someone who you would expect to be a legendary warrior of sorts. All of his power comes from his ability to use the force-- what his "size matters not" speech is saying is that the force transcends physical limitations, and is a power all of its own.

So then when you have Yoda face someone who is equally matched in Yoda's force abilities, and then have to battle with lightsabers or some such means, size begins to matter because the physical limitations of Yoda's stature means he has to spend a lot more energy fighting than his opponent might.

EDIT: And StoutFiles summed it up much better. Alas.


It wasn't the physical limitations of Yoda's stature that were the problem. Let's not forget that Yoda had around 900 years of experience behind him and that surely does matter when compared to an opponent's 100 or so years? Yoda may have not been a legendary or powerful character but neither was Sidious.

For Yoda's teachings say size matters not and a Jedi would have to open themselves up to the force fully and shut down all other distractions. When Yoda dueled with Sidious he wasn't exactly in a calm state of mind was he? Yoda had just realised that the Jedi Order was dead, realised that it was the Sith who had destroyed it so very cleverly under his nose, realised that Sidious whom the Jedi had pledged allegiance to and were fighting for was the Sith lord, felt and saw most of his Jedi friends die, found out about Anakin turning to the Dark side and many more things.

Palpatine on the other side was content (happy would be the wrong word to use for a Sith), all his plans had worked fine, the majority of Jedi had been killed, gained Anakin as his apprentice, and was able to show his true self and to tap into his anger and dark side of the force fully without having to worry about being discovered.

So, straight away there you can see that Yoda had already been defeated psychologically and there was no way he could open himself to the force fully. At least it can be presumed so logically since the film does not shed any light on this matter.

Therefore the "size matters not" speech/teaching ought to be seen in context of the criteria that come with it.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Mister Ed » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:39 am

darthius wrote:
Flynn wrote: Please don't declare our opinions for us- it's kinda rude.


So far I have been giving my opinion of how I perceive the comments that hardcore OT fans make. There's a difference there. If you are unable to understand it please ask me to clarify. But please do not talk to me in a condescending manner because that is definitely rude.


Oh come now, you have been at just as condescending as Flynn has with your dismissive interpretations of other's reasons for disliking the PT, and now with your condescending offer to explain away your previous condescension as something else if folks are "unable to understand".

Does it somehow degrade your ability to enjoy the PT if you can't rationalize away others reasons for disliking it as trivial? That seems at least as silly to me as folks that feel like, since they so dislike the PT, everybody else MUST share that opinion.

Maybe everybody can take a break from trying to "prove" that their opinion of the PT is the "right" one?
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby emmtwosix » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:58 am

Flynn wrote:If he had to face someone who was a 100-foot tall gargantuan and had hundreds of arms, all sporting lightsabers, he wouldn't have a chance.

1) Apparently someone hasn't heard the biblical tale of David & Goliath ... or the less biblical tale, Little Giants (at least I don't think it's biblical...does anybody remember if Moses ever played for a team coached by Rick Moranis?)

2) In Ep.II, Obi-Wan says "If you spent as much time practicing your saber techniques as you did your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman." While this doesn't prove or disprove that Yoda is the best at lightsaber combat, it certainly holds him in very high esteem.

With that being said, does one battle prove he's not better than Dooku? Does Yoda have to be perfect for this particular maxim, "size matters not," to hold true? More importantly, he had to go and save Obi-Wan & Anakin's sorry butts from being crushed. So in a way, if you consider what Dooku did to be cheating, then yeah I'd say Yoda won that fight anyway. Even if it wasn't cheating, Dooku obviously felt that the battle wasn't going his way and looked for an "out" from the fight.

Either way, Yoda "losing" one particular lightsaber battle doesn't immediately falsify his statement, and most importantly, doesn't diminish the sentiment to be taken away from it.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby darthius » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:28 am

Mister Ed wrote:
darthius wrote:
Flynn wrote: Please don't declare our opinions for us- it's kinda rude.


So far I have been giving my opinion of how I perceive the comments that hardcore OT fans make. There's a difference there. If you are unable to understand it please ask me to clarify. But please do not talk to me in a condescending manner because that is definitely rude.


Oh come now, you have been at just as condescending as Flynn has with your dismissive interpretations of other's reasons for disliking the PT, and now with your condescending offer to explain away your previous condescension as something else if folks are "unable to understand".

Does it somehow degrade your ability to enjoy the PT if you can't rationalize away others reasons for disliking it as trivial? That seems at least as silly to me as folks that feel like, since they so dislike the PT, everybody else MUST share that opinion.

Maybe everybody can take a break from trying to "prove" that their opinion of the PT is the "right" one?


The way I see it is that in a forum fans are allowed to have a debate as long as it is kept civilized, which is what we have been doing so far. But telling someone that they're being rude when they're simply expressing an opinion takes the whole thing on a personal level. And that last bit is uncalled for, hence my retaliatory reply.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby crazybirdman » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:41 am

I agree, this is all just fun discussion as far as I see it. No one (i hope) is trying to force somebody to see things there way. If anything, we're just trying to make people understand why we feel the way we do.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Mister Ed » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:54 am

darthius wrote:The way I see it is that in a forum fans are allowed to have a debate as long as it is kept civilized, which is what we have been doing so far. But telling someone that they're being rude when they're simply expressing an opinion takes the whole thing on a personal level. And that last bit is uncalled for, hence my retaliatory reply.


That's just it, though. I don't think it HAS been particularly civilized, and I think there HAS been condescension on both sides (including from you). A blanket dismissal of people's dislike of the PT as simply "hardcore OT fans that can't stop complaining and hating the PT films because they ruined their films and precious childhood memories" is plenty condescending, and if you can't see that, I'm not sure what else to say.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby darthius » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:10 pm

Mister Ed wrote:
darthius wrote:The way I see it is that in a forum fans are allowed to have a debate as long as it is kept civilized, which is what we have been doing so far. But telling someone that they're being rude when they're simply expressing an opinion takes the whole thing on a personal level. And that last bit is uncalled for, hence my retaliatory reply.


That's just it, though. I don't think it HAS been particularly civilized, and I think there HAS been condescension on both sides (including from you). A blanket dismissal of people's dislike of the PT as simply "hardcore OT fans that can't stop complaining and hating the PT films because they ruined their films and precious childhood memories" is plenty condescending, and if you can't see that, I'm not sure what else to say.


When I have said Hardcore OT fans I do not mean a specific member or specific members in this forum. I am talking generally about all of those OT fans who instead of providing a rational explanation of why they dislike the PT, they just search every opportunity they can in every forum to post mindless and dumb hatred about the PT. That's whom my opinion that you have quoted above applies to.

We have had at least a decade of OT fans vs the rest of the Star Wars fans. And almost in every internet discussion that I have seen so far it seems to be some OT fans that start dismissing the PT and CW (recently) as rubbish and a mistake that George has made. I have never ever seen a CW or PT fan complain or call the OT films rubbish or anything like that. It's that bad that it has even spread amongst Lego Star Wars fans. :facepalm:
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby bigospedros » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:12 pm

Having read this thread yesterday, I decided to watch Episode I after work today ... on DVD ... and I still like it as a film. I don't really see what other people's issues are, but I respect their opinion. Sure, there are a few bits that are clunky, but I think that's the same in any film.

Saying that, I don't particularly want to see it in 3D though ... it's a gimic as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Mister Ed » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:20 pm

darthius wrote:
Mister Ed wrote:
darthius wrote:The way I see it is that in a forum fans are allowed to have a debate as long as it is kept civilized, which is what we have been doing so far. But telling someone that they're being rude when they're simply expressing an opinion takes the whole thing on a personal level. And that last bit is uncalled for, hence my retaliatory reply.


That's just it, though. I don't think it HAS been particularly civilized, and I think there HAS been condescension on both sides (including from you). A blanket dismissal of people's dislike of the PT as simply "hardcore OT fans that can't stop complaining and hating the PT films because they ruined their films and precious childhood memories" is plenty condescending, and if you can't see that, I'm not sure what else to say.


When I have said Hardcore OT fans I do not mean a specific member or specific members in this forum. I am talking generally about all of those OT fans who instead of providing a rational explanation of why they dislike the PT, they just search every opportunity they can in every forum to post mindless and dumb hatred about the PT. That's whom my opinion that you have quoted above applies to.


Glad for the clarification.

I hope you can understand, though, that your phrasing in the post I quoted, clearly SEEMS to say that ANYBODY that dislikes the PT falls into your prospective group of hardcore OT fans who only dislike it because it tarnishes their "precious childhood memories" (a rather dismissive and condescending wording), especially since you follow that statement by contrasting them with "everybody else" who apparently enjoys the PT just fine. Given the blanket nature of your statement, it really DOES seem as if you ARE applying it to pretty much any member of this site posting here their dislike of the PT.

It is little wonder that somebody that does not fit your generalization might object to your making it. I was a little surpised that you chose to take offense at somebody pointing out that they didn't fit into the generalization you had made of all PT detractors.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Mister Ed » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:36 pm

For myself, I enjoyed all three Prequel movies to one degree or another, but not as much as the Original Trilogy. They had their strengths (cool action sequences, the awsomeness of seeing the Jedi in full force, great set design and visuals, and a few really strong performances), and serious flaws (Jar Jar was, IMHO, the most annoying Star Wars character out of all the films- though to be fair, they seemed to realize that and minimized him in the 2nd and 3rd, Anakin and Padme's relationship was WAAAAY beyond any realm of credibility- he gave off a creepy, needy, stalker vibe the whole time yet she STILL somehow fell for him?, and there was SOME truly abysmal dialog and wooden acting). And yes, there were some aspects that bugged only in the sense that they didn't mesh well with the OT that they were supposedly setting up, but I don't think they were a big part of why I liked the PT less than the OT, and they certainly didn't keep me from enjoying the PT.
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Re: To See, Or Not To See - Episode I in 3-D

Postby Flynn » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:00 pm

emmtwosix wrote:1) Apparently someone hasn't heard the biblical tale of David & Goliath ... or the less biblical tale, Little Giants (at least I don't think it's biblical...does anybody remember if Moses ever played for a team coached by Rick Moranis?)


Could be wrong, but isn't the point of the D&G tale is that David puts his faith in God to help him defeat Goliath, and it's that faith that tips the scales of the fight in his favor? In that case, it's almost parallel to what I'm saying about Yoda- his power and strength comes from his use of the force. He's a diminutive character with (until Attack, at least) limited agility and strength*- essentially the completely wrong kind of physicality that could apply to any kind of warrior. But he has the force, which transcends his limitations and makes him a powerful Jedi Master. That's what I feel Empire was always saying about the force- that it's a far greater power than we can understand, that is beyond our understanding of the physical world.

Thus, if Yoda is ever to fight in the prequels, I think it should be force battles- like the beginning of his fight with Dooku in Attack. Because giving him a lightsaber means that at some point, he has to care about his corporeal self and what's he's doing physically- and that, in my eyes, goes against what he says in Empire.


*Obviously this is because of the limitations of the effects, and how Yoda is a puppet until Attack of the Clones. Nonetheless, I fully believe the creators used the limitations of the production to aid the points of the story- embracing the limitations rather than working in spite of them.
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